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 Post subject: Supporting the sites that accept US players.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:02 pm 
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I don't get the attitude taken by this forum advising players not to play until regulation ?
Even if that does happen, it could take years..

Bingo players should be supporting the sites that are not giving in to this ridiculous hypocrytical 'ban' . The World Trade Organisation has just declared it illegal.

My favorite site shut down, but there are still plenty of good sites that welcome US players, and they have set up new payment and withdrawal methods, using go-between sites like Ecocard.

If you read about the ban, it only applies to Banks and credit card companies making direct payments to online gaming sites.
It doesn't make online gaming in itself illegal. The only illegal form of gaming is sports betting.

So there is no chance of any individual player getting arrested for playing online bingo , or any of the other scare stories.

Any regulation will probably actually come quicker if the banking ban is shown not to be practical, and just as many players are still playing online.
Sure, there might be a few rogue sites trying to scam players, but so long as you stick with the big names you are safe. Word soon gets around if a player doesn't get paid. That's what the forums are for.

I am certainly not giving up my freedom to play online. And the chatrooms at the sites seem as busy as ever, so it seems like most people feel the same.


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 Post subject: ban
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:10 pm 
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Hello bingofan and Welcome


I,personally, advise to not deposit because there is a ban on the transfer of money for the purpose of gambling..PERIOD! If a site has found alternate methods that circumvent the U.S,ban, it is iincumbent upon the player then to take heed and use caution. Is a site really interested in supporting your right to gamble on line by offering other depositing methods, or are they interested in your cash flow?
None of these online sites are based in America and are governed solely by the laws of the source country.
What they are doing is illegal, they have just devised their own loopholes to get your cash. What makes you think they are not going to devise a loophole to keep your cash?

Regulation or some type of standardization needs to occur to stop sites from creating a "free for all" platform of policies and rules that they can
alter, change or misuse anytime they damn want to. A player is even advised of that in most of the sites own rules where it states that the management has the right to change the rules without prior notice and at their own discretion.
You have the right to play online bingo at any site that will accept U.S. players, but know that there are risks involved, and BPU is attempting to warn players that the risk may outweigh the benefits.
Check out the watchdog forums and see what some players have to say about the scams and defrauding that has been perpetrated on them by bingo sites. Not to say they are ALL out to cheat, but the chance of that happening is even greater now because some players have chosen to engage in activity that is not considered totally legal within the mandates of the ban.
Bingo sites are scrambling for the American dollar right now and are seeking ways to make that happen.
Regulation or standard policy directives is a necessity for the safeguard of players and sites also. Until that happens, every person has to decide for themselves the age old question..." to play or not to play". Not depositing is an option that BPU is in accordance with, but you , and everyone else have the right to make your own decision.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:28 pm 
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Welcome bingofan200 and thanks for your comments!! I also am a bingo fan, but I, personally cannot deal with the choices of rules given by the online bingo games, so I spend my time trying to let other players know what is going on in the bingo world!! We at BPU do what we do because we love bingo!!

GL to you wherever you take the chance to play and if you ever need us.. we are here for YOU THE PLAYER!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:52 pm 
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Hi bingofan2000 Welcome to BPU!
Bingofan2000 said:
Quote:
I don't get the attitude taken by this forum advising players not to play until regulation ? Even if that does happen, it could take years..


When the ban began, there was a flood of complaints about sites ripping off US Players. The Industry went through a very unstable period and many US Players were not allowed to continue to play at many sites. Sites did whatever they could to get that last nickel from players, because they feared the end was near. Greed ran ramped in many sites and still occurring to this day.

We seen situations where once trusted sites, were no longer to be trusted. In such an atmosphere we could no longer endorse any site to our members and guests. As it stands: We have reason to believe that it may be illegal to gamble online in: Illinois, Indiana, Louisiana, Nevada, Oregon, South Dakota, Washington, Michigan, New York, New Jersey and Wisconsin. If you live in one of these states, we advise you NOT to gamble online

Source: Casino City
Warning: You must ensure you meet all age and other regulatory requirements before entering a casino or placing a wager. There are hundreds of jurisdictions in the world with Internet access and hundreds of different games and gambling opportunities available on the Internet. Do not assume that Internet gaming sites are in compliance with the rules and regulations of every jurisdiction from which they accept players. YOU are responsible for determining if it is legal for YOU to play any particular game or place any particular wager under the laws of the jurisdiction where you are located.


We also seen the Industry scramble to find ways for players to continue to fund their accounts. Neteller’s collapse surely didn’t help the situation. Besides the problem of getting funds into sites, there is also a problem getting players cashouts to them. The situation is still pretty unstable and any player that is continuing to play at any sites is doing so at their own risk.

I agree! This can take years before this is all resolved. The Shock and Awe Period seems to be about over and the Industry seems to have adjusted to the situation. Yes! There maybe a few good sites out there, but there are lots of bad ones that continue to cheat all players.

We may adjust our position on whether players should play on line again; That will come when and if we determine the situation is stable. If you have read any of your fellow players experiences, posted here, you can see how important it is to get regulations to protect all players.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:14 am 
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hello bingofan, its nice to meet you O:)

in my opinion it is very bad move to continue funding online gambling at this time.
even before the bills passed last year, forums such as bpu were full of concerns and issues from players having problems with sites. players had very little protection and not much recourse against being taken advantage of....and now players have even far less protection and recourse.
the government has already seen what kind of money has been spent in online gambling over the past years....that is why all this is going on now....they did this because they haven't gotten their piece of it.

regulation and legal online gambling is coming no matter if people continue to participate in online gambling at this time or not, you can bet on that.
- but you can also bet on the fact that players are completely unprotected at this time in every sense of the word.

i say its better to be safe than sorry.

bpu will not encourage anyone to break a law....no matter how ridiculous and unfair that law may be.
and as always, we are here to help those that need us.
we will continue to get the word out about any site that is taking advantage of this situation. when regulation finally does come....we will remember who those sites are. (as well as remember which sites treated players right, of course)

again bingofan, its nice to meet you... and welcome to bpu! O:)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:28 pm 
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I have to agree with bingofan on this one. The United States is breaking the law by going against the W.T.O ruling right now, so who is the bad guy here the gaming sites or the governement? I would love to see regulation but what makes you think regulation is going to make things better and more fair to the player? The government regulates lotteries and there is scandal and scams in the news pertaining to the lotteries almost daily. One recent one here in Canada with the Ontario Lottery Corporation.

So who do you trust the government hahaha yeah right, or the online casino's? I think I will take my chances with the casino's, at least I get some pleasure playing, and I have rarely come across one that ripped me off as much as the government has haha.

Freedom is my right, and if I chose to play bingo online I should have the right to do it.


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 Post subject: regulation
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:56 pm 
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Location: USA
babysdream,
Historically, there have always been those that seek to manipulate and devise schemes that spoil the best laid plans. When someone sees an opportunity to create a way to make a profit or gain in spite of moral or legal consequences, corruption occurs. That may include everything from the welfare system, medical health and insurance plans, lotteries and investments.
You ask who the bad guy is here because the US is defying the WTO? If we feel our government is wrong on something, does that give us the right to individually ignore or defy a mandate ourselves then? You may not agree with the ban, feel it is unjust or totally out of order ( as others do), but I do think our country does have enough clout to punish those who choose to openly defy the ruling. If you want to say" the US is defying the wto, so I will defy the US that is your choice, of course. But, think about the reasons why the casinos are attempting to circumvent the ban....is it to protect your constitutional rights as a citizen, Is it to provide you with entertainment and recreation, is it some noble purpose that will force the US to see the error of its ways in abrogating the rights of their residents? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO..it is simply to pocket your money in anyway they can get it, preferably without anyone regulating or monitoring their methods. Apparently the offshore jourisdictions that now control bingo and casino sites are very interpretive in nature or there would not be all the scamming and fraud perpetrated on players so freely.
When a site suggests an alternate method of deposit that is "skirting" around the ban, is that any less offensive than the US defying the WTO? Is one more right or wrong? I have to look at it personally and think if they are willing and able to "cheat" the money transfer ban, do I really want to trust them to be honest with me as a single player? What recourse do I have if they treat me unfairly?
Anyone has the right to make choices within the boundaries and limitations of any situation,but I do not think that bingo sites and casinos have the right, at this time, to arbitrarily negate the ban..especially just for their own profit!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:53 pm 
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Posts: 592
Location: USA
Hi Bingofan.. Welcome
Thank for your comments and they go respected.
I disagree however based on 1 very good fact ! There is NO GUARANTEE a player will ever see a dime IF they should be so lucky to win. Until regulation is in place for ALL. ALL sites can very quickly without your knowledge change the rules daily. They can always make excuses as is happening all over the net now as to why the delay over & over and never allow you to know the truth or see a penny.
Simply there are FAR too many bad goings on all over to ever justify supporting even the good ones. I can say this from experience. I too, had thought some were good thru & thru and they have let so many down without batting an eye.. Why I asked?? Because they can.
It may take some time but as they say All Good Things Come To Those Who Wait ~!!! I believe that to be very true in this case. If they want the money bad enough ( when everyone stops funding ) they WILL find a way to help get online gaming REGULATED ~! Until then you are very much at risk ( Red Alert ) and for them it is business as usual.

Peace !

I BEEN THERE/ Missy


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:07 pm 
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Dynamitewoman I was going to pick pieces of your post and answer to it but the whole thing pretty much says the same thing so here goes. You are saying it's ok for the U.S government to break the law but the citizens that live in the U.S shouldn't? Being able to gamble online in the comfort of your own home should be your choice and freedom to do so. I will never ever let my government tell me what I can and can't do in the comfort of my own home. Do you really want to be controled that way? I don't. In my opinion the government does more illegal things than any online gambling site could ever do, so who do you really trust here? I don't trust my government to do the right thing ever, lets face it all politicians lie to get your vote. So if I choose to pay for entertainment by playing bingo online is my choice, and no one elses. To be perfectly honest I spend way less money now on bingo, than I ever did when I went to land bingo, and I win and cashout way more too, so it's all good.

Sure if they regulate online gambling you can sue a site that does you wrong, but what makes you think you will win? Also it could takes years to get through the courts as well. The way to fix this is to get all the cheater sites off the internet then you don't have to worry about regulations and law suits etc. You say that gambling sites are in it for the money, well what do you think the government is in it for? Money is the only reason the government is trying to stop it, because they want a piece of the pie. The money I spend at online bingo is money I already paid taxes on, so my government has no right to any of it.


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 Post subject: gambling ban
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:02 pm 
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babysdream,
I never said it was alright for our government to break the law.They are breaking an agreement with the WTO, and that is their dilemna and solution to devise..not mine. i did say,because our gov. chooses to break a law, does not give ME the right to break a law. I also said that we may not agree with policy or procedure of our government, but it does not mean we can then ignore the policy.
I do not like the way that our government makes us pay taxes on our income and then charges us taxes on what we buy with already taxed monies. Maybe i should refuse to pay sales tax on purchases that are taxed, especially food. I think that is ridiculous to tax essentials like medicines and foods. I am more than certain many people have gripes about citizen issues and rights, and they must decide how to resolve that in their own minds. As long as a law exists, there are choices, abide by the law, or suffer the consequences and repercussions. That is a personal choice given to each of us no matter what anyone else in this world is doing. We can point a finger at someone else and say "look what they are doing", but that does not erase the responsibility of dealing with our own decisions. if you got stopped by a traffic cop for speeding, and while he is writing you a ticket, a car goes speeding by faster than you were traveling, would you expect to be excused or feel justified because others are speeding too?
I do not like the government telling me what to do in the privacy of my home at all. The ban is not on gambling, but on the transfer of money for the purpose of gambling on the airwaves of the internet.
You ask me what makes me think I would win if I had to sue a gambling site once regulation is in place? Let me ask you this then...What makes you think a gambling site would even pay you winnings? They are not obligated to in any way, but their own say so. You are taking a risk trusting them!
Money is usually behind everything. So America wants a piece of the pie?
Is there some reason you think the entire pie should go to countries like Barbuda, antigua or some other small closet third world nation looking to make a fast but big buck on the American player? Land based bingo halls in the US have requirements to pay taxes on winnings . When you win over a certain amount in one shot, a paper is signed saying that you have won this amount and this information will be sent to the IRS. It has been that way in the several states in which I have played bingo. Refuse to sign the paper and you get no money.
If you have a way to designate exactly what sites are cheating, please share that. The best way to get suspected cheating sites off the net is to STOP DEPOSITING at them, because there is no other way. The ban might work in ridding the honest player of sites that would defraud and cheat, but that wont even work if sites keep finding alternate ways of depositing (illegal) and players keep accepting the invitation to possibly be scammed. If a site uses loopholes and trickery to get your money, what makes you think they will be honest with you?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:04 pm 
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Quote:
You are saying it's ok for the U.S government to break the law but the citizens that live in the U.S shouldn't? Being able to gamble online in the comfort of your own home should be your choice and freedom to do so. I will never ever let my government tell me what I can and can't do in the comfort of my own home.


two wrongs do not make a right.

how things should be and how they are....well thats 2 different subjects.

our government is wrong about what they have done and are continuing to do....
but we are the ones who chose to live here, and we have to follow the laws and such until we can get it changed.

our government and the WTO will come to a head....the us government will not be allowed to keep things this way, and its a matter of time before we see something start to happen.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:28 pm 
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Thanks for the replies everyone. I just think that waiting for the US goverment to regulate online gaming anytime soon is wishful thinking.
And chances are, they will just ignore the WTO.

I understand peoples concerns about getting ripped off by unscrupulous sites, but wasn't that the case even before the new regulations?
Players haven't been able to deposit with credit cards for years, and the sites found a way round it, so what is the difference now?

Same with regulation. Almost all the major bingo sites were offshore and unregulated before.
It all comes down to their reputation. If they treat players badly or don't pay out on a jackpot, then word spreads and they lose customers.
It is in their own interest to be fair and honest.

As far as I am concerned, nothing much has changed. The new law is for the banks to deal with. It doesn't specifically ban online gaming - just tries to make it harder to fund.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:39 pm 
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It does make it harder to fund.. but what should be a players most important thought is how winnings will be paid... that would be important to me anyway!! These online sites are making certain you can fund.. how many are making progress with QUICK payouts? Not many if any.... I would guess it is not a priority. Doesn't ANYONE want fair and legal?

Some say they play online bingo just for the relaxation or companionship or for whatever purpose. I enjoyed those aspects too but bottom line for me was I played to win!! When/if I won, I wanted to be paid. I think any person who gambles would be stretching the truth to say being paid for wins wasn't that big of a deal.

I agree with Gina when she says the only way to get the cheater sites off the internet is to STOP FUNDING and playing there!!.. Not even everyone has to stop because there are some who never will. These people make it hard on the ones who do want better rules, better payouts, better customer service and the list goes on and on. If enough of us stop.. these sites will be gone as several already are.

You do not get any more addicted than I was and guess what???? I have lived without it!! I will play again only if the USA becomes involved and I am assured of some way to make owners/managements of online sites have a higher power to answer to...aka the US government.

I can stand tall and be counted as one who did what needed to be done to do away with cheater scamming online bingo sites. I do not fund. I will not fund as things are now.

Once again, I would rather have them all gone as to have the options and rules they now offer in the name of "standard industry guidelines". For one, the government has not made me stop. I CHOSE to stop until something better is offered.

I don't agree with everything our government does, but I live here by choice and have many more freedoms than a lot of countries where I could be.

I refuse to be brainwashed and lead down any path that will get my money by sites who do not even know your name. You are an account number to the owners and management. Their "head games" include making you think you are part of a "bingo family". If you want to really find out how important you are.... quit funding!! See what lengths they go to in order to get your money. Or stay out of chat... see how many (owners and managers) contact you to see why.

As long as you keep the money coming, they don't give a rip one way or another. How many online sites are doing ONE THING respectable to help us as Americans or Canadians to play?? The only thing I can see they are doing is putting in overtime to work around the problem instead of trying to solve it. If they are doing anything.. someone is taking great pains to see that the general gambling public (bingo players) knows nothing about it.

Some are just okay with the "industry standard" rules, play thrus, time consuming payouts, closing accounts with no valid reasons, etc. I AM NOT OKAY with it!! And I hope everyone who feels like I do will stand up and say 'WE WON'T TAKE IT ANY MORE! And.... it will be YOUR decision, not something the governemnt has "thrust" upon you!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:31 am 
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Quote:
Thanks for the replies everyone. I just think that waiting for the US goverment to regulate online gaming anytime soon is wishful thinking.
And chances are, they will just ignore the WTO.

I understand peoples concerns about getting ripped off by unscrupulous sites, but wasn't that the case even before the new regulations?
Players haven't been able to deposit with credit cards for years, and the sites found a way round it, so what is the difference now?

Same with regulation. Almost all the major bingo sites were offshore and unregulated before.
It all comes down to their reputation. If they treat players badly or don't pay out on a jackpot, then word spreads and they lose customers.
It is in their own interest to be fair and honest.

As far as I am concerned, nothing much has changed. The new law is for the banks to deal with. It doesn't specifically ban online gaming - just tries to make it harder to fund.


You took the words right out of my mouth bingofan, I was about to say the exact same thing until I read further down the thread.

Quote:
What makes you think a gambling site would even pay you winnings? They are not obligated to in any way, but their own say so. You are taking a risk trusting them!


As bingofan said if a site wants and has a good reputation they pay out winnings without having to jump threw hoops to get it. I only play at sites I am certain I will get my cashouts done with no hassles. I think I got stung twice when I first started playing because I didn't know any better.

Quote:
Is there some reason you think the entire pie should go to countries like Barbuda, antigua or some other small closet third world nation looking to make a fast but big buck on the American player?


I will answer to this one as a Canadian not an American, I agree that North America should get a piece of the pie, but a piece of the pie meaning North American people get to make money off of online gambling by opening sites based in North America. Not the government owning and running all the sites based in North America. Canadians don't pay taxes on winnings so that aspect would not affect me whatsoever. Now lets go one further, lets say it gets regulated and sites open in both the U.S and Canada, which sites would you play at? The one in the U.S if you win you have to pay taxes on your winnings or, the one in Canada if you win no taxes to pay? If a U.S resident plays at the Canadian site it would be just like them playing at an offshore site when it comes to their rights and vice versa for a Canadian to play at a U.S based site. What rights do you have being from another Country? Get my point? With or without regulation you will still not have any rights if you play at a site outside your own country.


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 Post subject: regs
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:56 pm 
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babys.. Yes I do understand your reasoning on this. But None of us really know what regulation will bring. Suppose offshore bingo is allowed , but they must adhere to established regulations if they want to get a piece of that pie? And because I must pay taxes on amounts won in land bingo now, I dont see that as a big alteration or complaint. We dont even know if it will be the individual paying taxes to play or the country that requests access to owners of North American bingo sites.

As far as the tuustworthiness of any bingo site..I think that has been deviated by the situation now. Bingo sites are scrambling for the American dollar and making promises and offering huge bonuses (which can require a 2 to 40 times playthru) at many sites. In the last few months, I have seen trusted established sites attempting to cheat players. I have seen sites disappear altogether wih players money in their pockets. I have seen sites offering alternate methods of deposit that may not be within the rule of the law. I have seen sites actually requesting players to lie to make a deposit to their site.

Credit cards have NOT always been excluded from making a deposit at sites. I used my cc long before I got netteller or firepay. I do not really remember who said this in a post,but it is inaccurate. I do not like the idea of my government telling me where I can or can not make a purchase, but they have, and I can protest either by..... ignoring that law by seeking other methods that are a bit illegal, not voting again for the authors of this bill, or taking pen in hand and writing to every representative I can get an address for.
I am in total disagreement with the ban ( especially for the lame excuses our politicians offered ), but it may be the open door for regulation whch I am in total favor of.


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